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I keep hearing that. The point is that the terms of reference within this review are the same as a judge-led inquiry. Because I do not want an inquiry that will last 13 years, with sub-postmasters coming back time and again with no justice.

I have been pushing on this from the moment that I found out the details about it as postal affairs Minister. That is why I will drive this through to make sure that the answers are heard and that the independent chairman, who is independent of Government and independent of the Post Office , gets to the bottom of the case and gets some answers.

Nothing could have been further from the truth. We have all been let down, and many sub-postmasters have been badly treated. I urge the Minister to start the independent review as soon as possible to discover precisely who knew what and when in Fujitsu, Post Office Ltd , and the National Federation of SubPostmasters.

Does he agree that nothing should be ruled out, including criminal prosecution, if justified? I totally agree with my hon. I do want to move this on as quickly as possible—not to rush anything, but to make sure that those postmasters can get answers and bring the injustice to an end.

I add my support for a proper judge-led inquiry, too. Della Robinson was sub-postmaster at Dukinfield post office. She lost her business, the building the post office was in, her rental property, her job, and almost her home.

It is just wrong. Can the Minister confirm that the Government are re-evaluating any public positions held by current or former senior employees at the Post Office who were intimately involved in decisions that victimised sub-postmasters?

I am aware that a former chief executive of the Post Office took up a role as a non-executive director at the Cabinet Office until she stood down.

I am also aware that the Care Quality Commission has written to Imperial following a fit-and-proper-persons referral. The CQC is considering this.

Post offices are at the heart of our communities, yet the sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses have been so badly let down.

I share the clear anger felt across the House on this issue, but to keep the network open and viable it must be attractive to take on a Post Office franchise.

To do that there is the critical question of rebuilding trust. As the Minister holds the Post Office to account, will he hold it to account on how it is rebuilding trust with all sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses right across the network?

I absolutely agree with my hon. That is why some of my first conversations with Nick Read , the current chief executive of the Post Office , have been to ensure that he can do exactly that.

We need to draw a line and right the wrongs of the past to give respect and trust, as well as support, for future postmasters to make sure they are valued stakeholders.

Sadly, one of my constituents tragically took his own life after being falsely accused of financial impropriety, leaving his family destitute and without their business.

It is too late for an apology or compensation for that family. What new procedures have the Post Office introduced to protect sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses as a consequence of this scandal?

What protections has the Post Office put in place to ensure accountancy software is fit for purpose? What action will be taken against those in positions of leadership in the Post Office during the scandal?

And does the Minister agree that actions speak much louder than words? I sympathise with the hon. That is one of many tragic stories.

The fact is that we have now got the Post Office to accept its wrong position and the fact that the Horizon software could make mistakes—things were being changed there.

That is why it is important to get that acknowledgment. It is also important that we continue to build trust with sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses in their relationship with the Post Office.

That is why every time I speak to the chief executive, I make sure that that is at the top of our agenda. If the Government accept that software can never be thought infallible, will the Minister take steps to ensure that the law and policy making reflects the truth that all software has bugs?

The Post Office Horizon scandal begs the question: why did the Post Office not believe its own sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, many of whom had given decades of loyal service, even after evidence was presented to them that the Horizon system was most likely faulty?

Can the Secretary of State give a cast-iron guarantee, as other hon. Members have requested, to all sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses and their families whose lives have been ruined, that there will be a judge-led inquiry, not merely a review, so we can ascertain how this happened, who is responsible and what steps can be taken to ensure that this never happens again?

I thank the hon. Gentleman for that promotion to Secretary of State. He raises some really important points.

The point is that, whether we call it a review or an inquiry, the terms of reference are exactly as he describes. We want to make sure we can get to the bottom of this to find out who made what decisions and how they were made, and ensure they can never happen again.

That is exactly why I have pushed to make this happen as soon as possible. Isabella Wall was a sub-postmistress in Barrow.

She ran a thriving shop and let flats above the property. As a result of the scandal, she lost everything.

She was the very first person to come and see me at a surgery as a newly elected MP and I carry with me the anger she brought to that meeting.

Does my hon. Friend accept that while the Post Office has accepted it got things wrong, there is a long, long way to go for people like Ms Wall before they are properly compensated for the financial and emotional losses they faced?

Will he confirm that the Government will give weight to fair compensation being paid to wronged sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses? Isabella Wall is one of far too many constituents of ours who have suffered in this.

Mr Dhesi was right when he said that the Post Office should have had more faith and trust in its sub-postmasters. Of course we will make sure we can get to the bottom of this to get some justice for Isabella Wall.

On the group litigation, I am glad that they have reached a settlement. As for sub-postmasters who have not yet been part of a case but may have suffered a shortfall, I encourage them to come forward to take advantage of the historical shortfall scheme the Post Office has launched.

Many happy returns, Mr Speaker. There is no doubt that many grave injustices have been served upon sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses, some of whom have gone to jail and lost everything.

I know that my constituents will want two things. The first is to see justice done and the full facts brought out in a public inquiry, which is why a judge-led public inquiry is so important.

They will also want to see their local post office network protected, ensuring it is shielded from the potential ramifications arising from the actions of management.

So what plan does the Minister have to ensure both? On the inquiry, I have set out the fact that the terms of reference are wide and deep enough.

The judge has already reviewed this situation; Justice Fraser has already come up with many, many pages of a response about what happened when and what went wrong.

We need to make sure we can build on that evidence, we listen carefully to those who have been wronged and we make sure it can never happen again.

We are all aware that victims of this scandal have lost their livelihoods, savings and reputations, and that some have lost their liberty, as a result of a faulty computer system.

I know that my hon. Friend understands the financial and emotional suffering that the Horizon litigation has brought on the victims, but does he agree that the only right and just situation will be to restore those victims to exactly the financial position they would have been in had this faulty system not occurred?

I am talking about full compensation and an apology, and, equally, about the real criminals being brought to justice. I thank my hon. The point he raises shows why it took a court to get to the bottom of this, to break the deadlock that had been happening over so many years, which should have been settled so much earlier.

Convicted claimants can still go through a further process; processes are in place for them to receive compensation, if appropriate.

The Post Office was not slow in dragging hard-working, honest sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses before the courts based on spurious data from a flawed IT system, one that it knew to be flawed, thereby depriving good people at the centre of their communities of their reputations, businesses and personal assets, in some instances their liberty and, tragically, for some their lives.

Does the Minister accept that a judge-led public inquiry, not a review, is required now, without delay, and that anything less is a further assault on the welfare of Horizon victims?

The findings outlined during the Horizon case provided extensive insight into what went wrong with the Post Office —this includes the independent judicial review of the facts that all sides have been looking for.

However, the serious impacts of this case mean more needs to be done. We want to be assured that the right lessons are learned, and that is the purpose of the independent review that we are in the process of setting up.

Will the Minister join me in paying tribute to the postmasters in Beaconsfield and Bucks and across the country who have tirelessly carried on throughout covid?

Will he also join me in paying tribute to Mr Patel, who passed away from covid and served the people of Hedgerley loyally?

He was lovingly known as CD to many of the customers. Will the Minister please not only demand an apology but demand justice for the countless men and women who served and have suffered at the hands of the Post Office , and who see no justice?

I hope that he will have the courage to deliver that for them. Justice is exactly what I want and what I want to be seen to be done. I would go further to extend my sympathy to the family of Mr Patel as well, because we must not forget, in all of this, at this particular moment in time, postmasters up and down the country are doing an incredible job for the most vulnerable people in society.

I followed that question up with a letter to the Prime Minister. Three months later, only this week, I received a response from the Minister.

With a background of many years in the postal industry, I know many whose lives have been destroyed by this scandal, including sub- postmasters and sub-postmistresses in my constituency of Jarrow.

So I ask the Minister again, and make absolutely no apology for doing so: will he commit to having a judge-led review as quickly as possible that will take action against those responsible for the scandal, and ensure that each individual case is assessed and proper compensation is paid to all those affected?

Lady for the work that she has done on this matter. Given her background, I can understand her motivation.

As I have said, it is important to know that the terms of reference of this independent review are wide enough and deep enough to get to the bottom of what happened.

An independent judge has already looked at this and built up a body of evidence and other views, which will be then be looked at as a complement to the review.

Do not forget that public inquiries cannot determine criminal or civil guilt in themselves; that is reserved for a court.

Many colleagues in the House have alluded to the importance of sub-postmasters during this global pandemic. What reassurance can my hon.

Friend give that Post Office Ltd has understood that there needs to be fundamental cultural and organisational change to ensure that sub-postmasters come forward and that therefore the critical network of post offices remains in our communities for years to come?

I think that that lesson has definitely been learned by the new chief executive. Certainly, the Government have worked, as shareholders, on a new framework for the Post Office to make sure that we can build a solid, confident relationship with future sub-postmasters.

The Minister has said several times that the victims of this situation need to be heard and their cases listened to, so can he name any one of them who is in agreement with his position and is not calling for an independent judge-led inquiry?

The sub-postmasters who have been wronged by this want some justice and they want it quickly. What I do not want to happen is a public inquiry that may take many, many years and cost them a lot of money to get more legal representation in.

When people have the chance to study the terms of reference, they will realise that the chair will be independent of Government and independent of the Post Office , and that he or she will listen to them to make sure that their stories are told—not just listen to them but make sure that those stories are actually there to feed into making sure that this can never happen again.

Then, I hope, they will see that justice can be done. Friend for his response to my hon. Friend Martin Vickers , but one of the stumbling blocks to a judge-led inquiry is cost.

Does he agree that it is absolutely imperative that the honest, decent sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses across the whole country, and indeed specifically in Romsey and Southampton North , should not have a price put on lifting the stain on their characters?

Sub-postmasters who have been wronged, including in Romsey, need to ensure that their voices can be heard quickly, with no cost.

They need to be sure that this can never happen again, and get the acknowledgement that there have been severe mistakes that have caused misery for so many.

This scandal represents a massive failure of accountability and oversight, not just by Post Office Ltd, but by the Government. Will the Minister apologise to those whose lives have been ruined?

There have been numerous attempts over the years to try to resolve the dispute. The fact is that the Post Office has independent operational control.

However, facts have come to light through the litigation, revealing that the advice that the Government and the shareholders received over that period was flawed.

That is why the Government will be monitoring closely the progress of the Post Office in delivering the programme of commitments following the settlement, including through the review.

We have also reviewed the mechanisms that we have in place to maintain oversight of the Post Office, by increasing the frequency of shareholder meetings, establishing a Post Office policy team within the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy , and publishing a framework document to govern the relationship between BEIS, UK Government Investments and the Post Office.

A very happy birthday to you, Mr Speaker. This Government have had six months to enact an inquiry—six months to seek justice for the damage, disruption and loss of livelihood caused by this scandal, not just to see whether the Post Office has learnt lessons.

The Minister has said that he pushed for the independent review, but what about listening to the sub-postmasters who have been left destitute by this scandal and providing them with the judge-led inquiry they so desperately want?

Will the Minister stop stalling with reviews and commit today to a judge-led inquiry? We can talk about semantics, but what we actually need are the terms of reference that get people what they want.

Whether we call it a review or an inquiry, the fact is that it will understand and acknowledge what went wrong in relation to Horizon by drawing on the evidence.

It will assess whether the Post Office has learnt its lessons, whether the commitments made by the Post Office in the mediation settlement have been properly delivered, and whether the processes and information provided by post offices to postmasters are sufficient.

It will also examine the governance and whistleblowing controls now in place at Post Office Ltd.

That is what we need to ensure that we get answers in as timely a fashion as possible. I am sorry that it has taken six months. These things are complicated; I would love to have announced the review that following day.

However, I am glad that we now have terms of reference that are deep and wide enough to get the answers that we need and for which sub-postmasters have desperately been waiting.

Friend the Minister is quite right to emphasise the need for speed, but people have taken their own lives, and have been wrongly convicted and imprisoned.

It does not get much more serious than that. This House is here to defend the liberties of our constituents. Will he bear in mind that the Prime Minister confirmed on 26 February that there would indeed be an inquiry, and, following this urgent question, will he discuss with his colleagues in the Government whether the will of the House may be different on this point from the will of the Government?

We have looked at the different options. I do not want something that is long, drawn out and costly for sub-postmasters, and which does not necessarily get any answers for years and years to come, if ever.

We need to listen to the views of the sub-postmasters who have been wronged and put that alongside the findings of Justice Fraser to ensure that such things will never happen again.

The Government speak as if there is nothing that they could have done as a special shareholder. Well, of course they could have done something.

This situation has left communities in York, such as Clifton, bereft of a post office. The fact is that the Government sat on their hands and did not use their powers, and sub-postmasters and sub-postmistresses were thrown into jail and made bankrupt, and some took their lives.

Do the Government not want a full, judge-led inquiry with the powers necessary to investigate and dig deep because a review does not hold those powers and will not expose their failings in this matter?

The Post Office has said that it will comply fully with this review. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment.

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